you said: “Actually, it is”

I say: When you earn something you deserve it because you have worked for it. Salvation is not deserved, we do not work for it… we did not pay the price for our sins… Salvation is mercy and grace. The part of salvation that is up to us is the receiving part. “Repenting, trusting, and asking” is how we recieve it.

—

You are missing te point of that passage… Those people thought they had done all these great works and so they thought they must be good enough to get to heaven… but Jesus says depart from Me ye that work iniquity. You interpret scripture very different from how I do aparently.

—

I assumed God did does not lie… and so assumed that salvation is eternal… and aparently so do you eh?

you said: “I have never said salvation does not lead to eternal life – I think it does.”

—

I said: “there is a difference between being ‘TRULY saved’ and just saying you are saved. and you are nit picking” (Starfox)

you said: “Honestly, this is like saying there is 2 ways to heaven – a gold road and a stone road – I may be nit-picking – but for good cause – your theology is flawed.”

My theology is not flawed… maybe your understanding of what I am saying is flawed (likely). There is obviously a difference in just saying that you are saved when you are not and actually being saved – that is what I am saying… very simple concept, right? (I hope)

—

I said: “I do not ascribe to a ‘believe in Jesus, and you are Christian idea’ Being Christian takes more than being saved”

You said: “Explain away then I must be wrong on my beliefs in Christ some way – I ask you to explain it all to me so I can be very clear on this.”

Very general explaination: Christian = living like Christ

Slightly more detailed: There is an example layed out in Acts 2:41-42
“41. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.”

gladly received his word (they were saved)
were baptized (they were baptized)
were added unto them (they joined the church)
continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. (they learned the doctrines and grew in knowledge and fellowship)

This is how to start being a Christian… there are many more details to living the Christian life, but this is the beginning and a broad overview.

—

I said: “And yes ,there will be various levels of rewards in heaven”

you said: “Prove this one also”

1 Corinthians 3:14-16
“14. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.”

And as Paul said to Timothy:

2 Timothy 4:7-8
“7. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
8. Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.”

—

“Jesus taught one very simple idea – here it goes – ‘do unto others as you would have done unto you’”

Jesus taught many things, there are many doctrines (teachings) in the Bible. He obviously taught more than just one simple thing.

“Repenting, trusting, and asking are not earning….” (Starfox)

Actually, it is – cause you take the salvation idea (which you have nothing to do with – happened 2000 years ago) and make it so we have something to do with it (acceptance) – and via our ‘response’ then, and only then, is salvation or no salvation made complete.

Either way, we are both saying salvation is in your hands and mine.

“These people were not saved… these people tried works to get them saved and it did not work” (Starfox)

That passage has nothing to do with earning salvation via works – it had to do with people working ‘iniquity’ (not works in a general sense). You are actually taking a doctrinal ideology and placing it into the text and making the words try to say something they do not. This has nothing to do with ’salvation via works’ as a teaching – although it used like it fits…but if you read it carefully when Jesus says he does not know the people it comes down to one simple thing ‘ye that work iniquity’. Jesus’ own judgment in that passage is based on someone’s works…go figure.

“Neither of these verses show that salvation is not eternal life!” (Starfox)

I have never said salvation does not lead to eternal life – I think it does. The point of those passages is to show what Jesus is judging by – and simply put – people’s good works (or bad).

“The idea I am “assuming” about Him is that He does not lie” (Starfox)

C’mon…you have to be kidding? I can assume God does not lie also but that does not mean I am going to make the same assumptions about salvation and ‘the way’ as you do…so God does not lie – cool.

“there is a difference between being “TRULY saved” and just saying you are saved… and you are nit picking” (Starfox)

Honestly, this is like saying there is 2 ways to heaven – a gold road and a stone road – I may be nit-picking – but for good cause – your theology is flawed.

“I do not ascribe to a “believe in Jesus” and you are Christian idea… Being Christian takes more than being saved” (Starfox)

Explain away then…I must be wrong on my beliefs in Christ some way – I ask you to explain it all to me so I can be very clear on this.

“And yes ,there will be various levels of rewards in heaven” (Starfox)

Prove this one also – and who cares about rewards in heaven anyways – isn’t the glory just being there anyways?

“Isn’t that rather exclusive? Yup!” (Starfox)

Not really – I think a lot more people than you think actually follow the teachings of the Christ – which have been on this planet for over 1900 years and have had their influence all over the place. Just because they don’t adhere to some dogmatic structure of religion and tradition doesn’t make a good person bad.

Jesus taught one very simple idea – here it goes – ‘do unto others as you would have done unto you’ – do that and you fulfill all the law and prophets (ie: follow the whole intent of the law). Tell me, do more people follow this idea than just what we see in the church?

Repenting, trusting, and asking are not earning…. but if you feel better defining them as such go ahead. But that is still the only way to be saved. Yes, it is exclusive.

Matthew 7:21-23
“21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23. And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

These people were not saved… these people tried works to get them saved and it did not work.

Matthew 25:41-46
“41. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42. For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43. I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45. Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”

Those people were not saved either… Neither of these verses show that salvation is not eternal life!

“God will not lie – I agree – but humans will make theological mistakes when assuming ideas about Him. is it possible your theology is flawed?”

The idea I am “assuming” about Him is that He does not lie. Nope… not flawed.

When I say “if you are TRULY saved” I am talking about people who are saved and not just saying that they are saved… there is a difference between being “TRULY saved” and just saying you are saved… and you are nit picking.

“So there are various types of Christian lives one could lead in following Jesus – kind of like 2 ways if you will.”

Nope there is one way to be Christian… and the the other way is just being saved and going to heaven and is not considered Christian in my definition.

“Whether you like this or not I am of the same faith as you (Christian) and this shouldn’t pose as any problem for you.”

No, you are not. How you define being a Christian and the doctrines that go with it are not the same as mine. What I say is Christian and what you say is Christian are two different things. Call yourself whatever you want to… we are not the same. I do not ascribe to a “believe in Jesus” and you are Christian idea… Being Christian takes more than being saved. Being saved is just the beginning. What comes after salvation that makes one a Christian, I’m sure you and I disagree on greatly… thus we are different.

“I will ask this also – does heaven have various levels of reward also”

And yes ,there will be various levels of rewards in heaven. I do not believe it in the same way as Mormons (my belief is not even close to that). Some will have rewards and some more than others and others will not have any at all.

“Let’s say we are back in the 1800’s and in the time of slavery in America – where those people were considered ‘less than human’.”

Excusitivity has it’s place.. I didn’t say it was to be used in everyting… you stretch the point.

“listening to and following Jesus’ words. It seems quite plain to me – Jesus is clearly asking us to acquainte ourselves with his sayings (to do them) and this build our faith in way that is ‘wise’. Some did not in this parable, nor in the fruit parable, or even those that claimed to know him – all coming back to one simple idea – to follow Jesus (ie: be Christian) is incorporate his teachings ‘proving’ to Jesus you do ‘know him’.”

Isn’t that rather exclusive? Yup!

That’s possible – but I think I was fair in asking the questions I did the first time around – which did not answer if Jesus was selective in his exclusivity of humanity – I think if I had to judge your conclusions thus far – I would say so.

“Salvation is by repenting of sins and recieving forgiveness from God and by trusting in Jesus alone to save you and keep you saved because only He can” (Starfox)

Salvation formula – repent (verb) of sins (us) + receive (verb) forgiveness (us) + trust (verb) in Jesus (us) = Jesus saves (verb) you (God). Accepting this salvation might not mean I am earning it but there is quite a bit more than acceptance here. You are aware in that sentence the verbs are action words right? We need to repent, recieve, and trust in that scenario – how is that not doing something (action) to earn our salvation? I am not playing with your words – those are them – and I am pointing out semantically what I see.

“Once you are saved you are forever saved because your salvation is secured by the power of God” (Starfox)

It is a truly interesting assurance you are making here – it’s the ‘once saved forever saved’ idea. It’s rather a funny thing to be honest because in 2 specific places in Matthew (7:21-23; 25:41-46) we see this is not always true of someone who may have very well accepted such a formula.

“You can therefore say our salvation is secure also because God will not lie” (Starfox)

God will not lie – I agree – but humans will make theological mistakes when assuming ideas about Him. is it possible your theology is flawed?

“Just because your salvation is secure doesn’t mean you can freely go about and do whatever you want. Hopfully if you are truly saved…” (Starfox)

Linguistically there is a problem here – look at it closely – at one point you say ’salvation is secure’ and then in the next sentence you say ‘if you are TRULY saved’. You seem to be making a difference between being saved and being TRULY saved – as if one is more legit than the other. I am not mixing your words – I saw this same cognitive dissonance in your last comment about the surety of salvation.

“Being saved will get you to heaven, living Christian will get you a life worth living and get you sometihng to show for it in heaven.” (Starfox)

So there are various types of Christian lives one could lead in following Jesus – kind of like 2 ways if you will. You can accept Christ (and get heaven), be saved and not follow the teachings or you can live according to the teachings of Christ and have something to show. I will ask this also – does heaven have various levels of reward also – I know the Mormons hold to this – like 3 kingdoms varying in degree’s of what someone is exposed to in heaven? Cause it does seem to me you with views like that about following Jesus – ther would have to be more rewards for some and less for others (even more to exclusivity).

“I don’t know if you are saved or not” (Starfox)

What do you think? Just because I can explain almost all the aspects and questions involved in this salvation discussion doesn’t quite eliminate me – does it? But of you need to know – I follow the teachings of Jesus and incorporate them into my life – and I can’t see why i would be much different than you?

“But I can pretty much tell that you are not of the same faith that I am.” (Starfox)

What makes you think this? Because I am not exclusive (ie: selective)? Because we don’t believe the same things identically? You’re not the first Christian person to use this as an excuse to think they’re more right than me – they just have to level/question my faith or even character – then they inherently have another level of being ‘right’ (ie: because I am not Christian apparently). Whether you like this or not I am of the same faith as you (Christian) and this shouldn’t pose as any problem for you. I ask questions because I think doctrinally a lot of churches are off the ball.

“About other faiths? Well, we can’t all be right. Salvation is by one Way and that Way is Jesus” (Starfox)

I agree – but what is the point/goal of the ‘way’? What is the one over-riding factor of Jesus’ teachings that you could say in one sentence defines all that he taught?

“but it does mean they are not all Christian or at the very least not all of them are well founded in the Word of God as strong Christians” (Starfox)

Well there are various levels of Christians apparently – the weak and the strong – is there no end to exclusivity/selectivity? I am not part of the everything’s ‘ok’ religion – so don’t worry about that – however I also don’t think our faith is so narrow it excludes to the point you think it does. I think people will exclude themselves from our faith (now a days on purpose) but this faith should not be pushing anyone away nor should churches position themselves in such ways as to focus on exclusivity.

I have said it point blankly that our faith is becoming determined by levels of this exclusivity – and in fact – it’s all over many church doctrines and I have no problem even finding it your comments (which supposes you support said ideas). Exclusivity is a real problem and I think you need to know how it can become flawed.

Let’s say we are back in the 1800’s and in the time of slavery in America – where those people were considered ‘less than human’. Exclusivity actually fights against the sincerity of this faith – because exclusivity would most likely mean those slaves were not treated ‘fairly’ – yet our teachings would tell us ‘all people are to be treated fairly’. The reason slavery lasted so long was because churches in Americas did very little to stem the tide of the problem – I am not sure they even saw the problem. The true problem was exclusivity/selectivity – so in some sense having that view works against our own teachings. One could say the same about segregation afterwards. I am not sure our exclusivity is beneficial – now if God wants to be – so be it – but we are not gods.

Thanks for bringing in the chapter of Matthew 7 – a gospel I study with all earnestness and devote my life to those teachings.

Prior to Matthew 7:13-15 we have 2 chapters of teachings and one verse prior (vs. 12) we see this “In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets’ (summing up Jesus’ whole view of his faith – which was Jewish and based on the Law and Prophets).

Oddly enough, Jesus narrows down a whole 39 books to one sentence – wow! So what does narrow mean in that exact passage? Could it be something very foundational to his idea of faith – something he teaches against quite regularily in the gospels – maybe faith needs to be made simpler so everyone can be involved? It would seem the current view of faith was well known but also quite complex – and it this was common knowledge. Maybe there is few there be that find out religion is not something that needs to be supremely complex and filled with 100’s of rules.

The false prophets things brings us into a point I am trying to make all along – Jesus wants us to ‘follow him’ (theme of Matthew) and this means his teachings.

By verse 23 we see Jesus casting out people who thought they knew him – quite intricately it seems – but did not…their lone problem – ‘lawlessness/unrighteousness’ – also the point of the fruits of parable (vs. 16-20). Then we move into the foundations (vs. 24-29) and we see something odd – what makes the foundation (or one could say a righteousness) – listening to and following Jesus’ words. It seems quite plain to me – Jesus is clearly asking us to acquainte ourselves with his sayings (to do them) and this build our faith in way that is ‘wise’. Some did not in this parable, nor in the fruit parable, or even those that claimed to know him – all coming back to one simple idea – to follow Jesus (ie: be Christian) is incorporate his teachings ‘proving’ to Jesus you do ‘know him’.

There is no simple salvation idea in chapter 7 – Jesus seems to be asking his followers to be a certain ‘way’.

Let me try again, and I’ll try to be perfectly clear.

1. Salvation is by repenting of sins and recieving forgivness from God and by trusting in Jesus alone to save you and keep you saved because only He can. Btw, accepting salvation doesn’t mean you earned it… just means it was offered and you took it. And, I would not call that a real “work” or anything.

2. You can not keep your own salvation. To believe that is to put the true saving power into yourself.

3. Once you are saved you are forever saved because your salvation is secured by the power of God, and there is none greater. What is everlasting life? It is life without end. When God says that we have everlasting life, He means it and He will make sure it is so! You can therefore say our salvation is secure also because God will not lie.

4. Just because your salvation is secure doesn’t mean you can freely go about and do whatever you want. Hopfully if you are truly saved you will want to serve God, but we are only human and fail plenty. When we fall, God’s justice and love punishes us to show us the error of our ways like a father punishes his chilren to teach them. Being saved will get you to heaven, living Christian will get you a life worth living and get you sometihng to show for it in heaven. Rest assured God will deal with those who try to go back to their old ways… but remember, He has already given them everlasting life… that is His final word because everlasting means everlasting, and God will not lie.

5. I don’t know if you are saved or not. Only you and God know that. But I can pretty much tell that you are not of the same faith that I am. Again, being saved is one thing… being right in what you do afterwards is another.

6. As to if my faith is right or not… I obviously thing so or I would not follow it. About other faiths? Well, we can’t all be right. Salvation is by one Way and that Way is Jesus.

7. Again, I believe in Christ alone for salvation, and I don’t cast my lot in with some giant “everybody’s ok” world religion… that is hogwash. When there are obvious contradictions in belief, they can not all be right… Even among those who are saved, there are different beliefs, and they can not all be right either. Doesn’t mean they are not saved… but it does mean they are not all Christian or at the very least not all of them are well founded in the Word of God as strong Christians.

“Since you seem to have a good judicial hold of this whole scenario of salvation – how many do you predict of the 6 billion on the planet are going to hell in each generation?”

An exact number? Beats me… ask God! I’d say a lot of them. Broad is the road to destruction and many follow it… strait and narrow is the road to life and few there be that find it.

Matthew 7:13-15
“13. Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14. Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.”

Obviously from these verses you can tell that there are those who are right and those who are false. Seems God paints a black and white picture.

So if we both claim to follow Christ one of us might not be? Is this country club faith or real faith we are talking about here? I may not fit into your neat little Christian mold – that doesn’t quite make my belief in Christ less than or greater than yours.

Exclusivity – if it is part of the body of the Christ – will also help to define it on some level (this attitude is the key to why there is over 100 denominations and very divided body of Christ). I have to think Christ wasn’t as exclusive as we want to think – cause he would not teach us this ideal to his body’s very dismay?

Also if Jesus is exlcusive then it stands to reason he is also selective…is Jesus selective regarding who can and can’t be saved?

“because “Jesus professing” doesn’t always mean “Jesus following.”” (Starfox)

I have looked into this idea with a microscope on the term ‘believe’ and I agree with this premise.

“that is through trusting faith in Jesus (the Way) alone to save and keep you saved and repentance of sins while asking forgivness from God the Father.” (Starfox)

(a) Jesus in 14:1 says something kind of strange – ‘believe in God and/(kai) believe also in me’. The word ‘kai’ actually seperates the sentence into believing in 2 identities. Now Jesus clears this up later in the chapter mind you – saying the ideas line up between God and himself – but that first line funny enough shows the term ‘belief’ used not solely of one person.

(b) Jesus is the ‘way’ – I agree – but the strength of your belief is that if I simply believe in Jesus and accept his salvation – then I am saved (or maybe not – since you don’t think this is assured). To me that kind of shallows out what it truly means to ‘believe’ in someone.

Jesus mentions aspects of belief in John 14 and what this ‘way’ is all about – following his teachings (vs. 15, 21, 23, 24, 26). I think to truly believe (or even love) Jesus is to follow his teachings and that alone is quite enough. Acceptance of his sacrifice is about as important as acceptance of yourself being a sacrifice – since Jesus followed a path and asked us to trod behind him (pick up the cross and follow me). I think the teachings of God are the path as taught by Jesus.

(c) You seem to think salvation is not secured – why? Someone can lose their salvation – which you freely admit we have no control over making happen (not via works) – yet we have control over losing it (via works)? This is quite the hopeless jargon to be honest – can’t be quite sure I am going to heaven as much as I am not sure I am going to hell. I am not sure this idea concerning salvation is logical.

“Just because someone claims Jesus is their savior doesn’t mean they are trusting in Him” (Starfox)

True – but how can you be so sure your denomination is not one of the one’s with the fallacy of the 100’s? You say salvation is not by works – just so we don’t boast about right – yet in your calculation of accepting Jesus’ sacrifice we see works in action. You have to say the prayer and accept or sacrifice is no good – counts for nothing – no matter how much Jesus loved someone.

Yet now we see you saying you cannot lose your salvation (He paid the FULL price for all sins past, present, and future) – since this is consistent with a more faith based idea. Problem there simply is it chalks faith up to a one time event – we accept – and then nothing else matters afterwards (can’t be lost). So basically we have to be involved in the salvation event irregardless – and for you – that is via accepting the sacrifice (something we do to earn it).

“Hell.” (Starfox)

Since you seem to have a good judicial hold of this whole scenario of salvation – how many do you predict of the 6 billion on the planet are going to hell in each generation?

“He was the sacrifce for our sins and therefore made Himself the Way to God.” (Starfox)

So if I simply follow the formula to salvation I am saved: I just say the prayer – accept the sacrifice of the Christ – and then I recieve the just reward of heaven? Since it all resides in one person’s actions and requires nothing of me – neat…and since there is nothing keeping me bound to the faith – cannot lose something I did not work to attain – read the next paragraph.

Thankfully I have done this back in 1993 (so either way I am covered) and I am not so doctrinally boxed in to believe this is even remotely accurate and nor do I have to. The logic is full of holes and requires nothing of us in regards to following Jesus’ teachings – which mind you in John are proof we actually love God. So by the salvation calculation one could be on his way to heaven and not even love God…now that is too priceless.

To me, the idea of following Christ is a lot more deeper than some salvation calculation which lets one pretend they follow Jesus via association. What really needs to be associated with the Christ is ‘the way’ we live our daily lives.

Dunno about that… sounds like my faith is different from yours… I’m not throwing my lot in with a one world “Jesus professing” religion because “Jesus professing” doesn’t always mean “Jesus following.”

“Also explain to me what it is that is exclusive as ‘the way’ or what does the ‘way’ mean?”

Means there is only one way to God… one way to heaven… basicly meaning, one way to be saved and that is through trusting faith in Jesus (the Way) alone to save and keep you saved and repentance of sins while asking forgivness from God the Father.

“Also, within our own faith we over 100 denominations – none of them quite teaching all the same thing – yet Jesus is their savior -”

Just because someone claims Jesus is their savior doesn’t mean they are trusting in Him and following the Way that has been set forth. Some preach a combination of Jesus and works… or that Jesus can save but you have the power to work to keep your own salvation. Jesus is the only One with the power to save and keep you saved. He paid the FULL price for all sins past, present, and futur. All we can do to have hope is take the gift He offers… the gift that is free to us because Jesus paid for it with His blood.

“Are over 100 differences all correct and the same ‘way’?”

Nope.

“I am not sure I understand the consequences of ‘the way’ – what are they if we do not follow ‘the way’?”

Hell.

“Is the ‘way’ a person and if so – how does that exactly work? ”

Jesus, who came to earth as a human person then assended to heaven with a new body no longer human, He was and is the Way. He was the truth in human form and is the truth now in heaven. He was the sacrifce for our sins and therefore made Himself the Way to God.

“I guess I don’t understand where the exclusiveness of this faith begins?”

It begins with Jesus.